An argument against, pre-tribulation rapture.


Much research can be done about the genesis of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Most studies lead to it not being widely recognized in the church before the 1800’s. This can be debated, but the Bible itself has much to say about the end times.

Dan.7:24-25 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Here we read of the saints at the time of the coming of the Beast of Revelations, being worn out, and given into his hand. Jesus was asked what would be the signs of his coming:

Luke 21:7-19 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.19In your patience possess ye your souls.

In verses 18 and 19  Jesus declared some of those persecuted, would be put to death. Many in the first century church were martyred, and were not supernaturally spared this fate. Jesus also indicates this type of persecution will be witnessed at the time of his second coming. And although some shall be caused to be put to death, Jesus goes on to say, “not an hair of your head shall perish.”  Jesus was indicating here that our physical bodies are not what’s important, but it is our spiritual being that he is concerned with. Notice these verses also ,

Math. 16:25-26 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

And again in Matthew,

Math. 10: 28   And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We have no need to fear being in the world, during the Great Tribulation. Many unsaved, will apparently come to accept  Jesus as their Lord and Savior, at this time.

Revelations 7:13-14And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Perhaps we can be used in a simple, or a mighty way, to bring the lost to know Jesus. Peter was the apostle to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles, yet both were martyred for their beliefs, and for spreading the Good News of Jesus .

Mathew5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

We are told by Jesus to rejoice, and be exceeding glad, if we are persecuted for Him! The Great Tribulation will be a time, when true Christian’s are persecuted for their beliefs.

Revelations 6:10-11And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelations 12:11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Here in Revelations chapter 6 we read that a number of fellow servants, and brethren, will be killed at the end time, as had been done during an earlier church period. Also in chapter 12 it states,  those that overcame Satan loved not their lives unto death.

Revelations 13:7-8 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Beast will be worshiped by the whole world, by everyone except those that have their names written in the book of life of the Lamb. Those that refuse to worship the Beast or anti-Christ? He will make war with them and overcome them.  The same language is used concerning the Two Witnesses.

Revelations 11:7 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Many bible scholars identify theses two witnesses as Jewish and Gentile believers of Christ, or as Israel and the true church. The below definition is borrowed from Wikipedia, under the heading of ,

Two Witnesses / Identity.

In attempting to exegete Revelation 11, commentators who hold to a premillennial eschatology generally interpret the two witnesses in one of three ways: (1) as individuals either manifested in some form of reincarnation; or “in the spirit” of Biblical prophets who once appeared in Bible history; or simply as two individuals newly arrived on the earth; (2) as corporate in nature (human) standing for the Church only or for Israel only; or both Israel and the Church; or for both Jewish and Gentiles believers in Jesus; or (3) as symbolism or an expression of biblical concepts (i.e., the Old and New Testaments; the Law and the Prophets;[4] Mercy and Grace)

It is quite possible that as Christians, we will be martyred for our witnessing of the truth, and grace, that is our Lord Jesus.

Isaiah 57:1-2 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. 2He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

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12 Comments

  1. If you can find a copy David Chilton’s commentary on The Revelation; Days Of Vengeance usually I’m not into a lot of heavy duty theology, I love the simple message of Christ pure and very simple, but Chilton will challenge your thinking on end times and the way most of the Church views the end times.
    For me I’m not waiting for a rapture or a someday earthly political Kingdom, i believe the Kingdom is a moral, ethical, Kingdom that Indwells us as believers; the Kingdom is in the Spirit (Rom. 14:17). Chilton’s book can be downloaded in it’s entirety off the old ICE forums site. It’s really I think the best commentary I’ve ever picked up.

    • Thanks for checking out my article, and for the book tip. I will look into this book. Take care.

  2. did you ever really ponder “just” this scripture????????…….

    Math. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    especially the “body” in “hell” part???????…….i’m gonna write about this one soon,……….

    • Hello John,
      I wrote an article, “God and eternal punishment. ” I think the scripture is referring to the fact that, in hell a person is destroyed body and soul. No eternal punishing.

  3. jssorrow’s comment is catching my ear,………..i like what i’m readin here so far,…i’ll have some questions later!!!!…….toksoon! john e doe

  4. oh!!!! and i dig the picture of the empty suit,…that’s funny…….

  5. LeonK

    I happen to believe in pre-tribulation rapture. Based on the salvation of the Hebrews out of Egypt from their task masters by Moses. They were not totally annihilated and God reserved a remnant and saved them by the blood on the door posts. Sure we will suffer persecution but the annihilation will not happen with Christian believers. Jesus will come and rescue those who have applied His blood on their heart. The rapture is a promise not just a minor prediction of theology. We shall be called up. HALLELUJAH.

    • Hi Leon,

      Nice to hear from you, thanks for your comments. It is so wonderful to know that either way we will be with the Lord forever. Take care.

  6. Irv

    / Right on, Leon. What you see here is something I ran into on the web. /

    Pretrib Rapture Pride

    by Bruce Rockwell

    Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
    Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
    The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
    BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
    Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
    Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
    Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
    Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
    Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving in Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot,” the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
    Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
    (Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)

    • Thanks Irv, That was very informative. My fear is that some may see the Anti Christ as the return of out Lord and Savior, because they are convinced they would be raptured first. They may also view the short term, relative peace, he brings, as the beginning of Christ’s 1000 year reign.

  7. Irv

    [Hi Leon. Spotted this additional item on the web. Enjoy.]

    PRETRIB RAPTURE STEALTH !

    Many evangelicals believe that Christ will “rapture” them to heaven years before the second coming and (most importantly) well BEFORE Antichrist and his “tribulation.” But Acts 2:34, 35 reveal that Jesus is at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His earthly foes at the second coming. And Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! They were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
    Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
    Many don’t know that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into an idolized separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which evangelical scholars overwhelmingly rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice” for more on this, and also Google “Pretrib Rapture Pride.”
    Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” and “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).

    • Thanks Irv,

      Great research.

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